EvilZone
General Tech => Operating System => : proxx December 21, 2014, 10:09:11 AM
-
Sup evilzone.
I am interested in some opinions here.
Last year linux has been under fire for being not as secure as we would like it to be.
Perhaps the arch is inherently more secure than say windows , but I am worried.
Thinking about making a full switch to BSD , point is that I am not sure if I would be better off.
Only thing I don't like is the lack of 'new hw' support and less software to play with.
I played around with BSD's before and know my way around for the most part.
Any thoughts?
-
besides the points you already made, I personally dont like the drama that surrounds BSD. Too much cloak and dagger, he said she said type of things going on. Supposed cases where founders of BSD distros backdoored distributions but was never verified, etc.
To me, I feel like itd take less effort to secure a linux box then to have a 'more secure' BSD box that has such a shitty culture and asshat developers. Of course this ain't universal, some pretty good hearted people out there, just not my style.
As far as linux security goes, almost all of its issues are easily solved by simply knowing what the fuck youre doing. You could say that about other OSes, but I feel like with linux its security is really up to you. In windows and other OSes you can easily get fucked by obscure features and complex systems. Sure linux can fall victim to that too but it tends to be the norm for other OSes. Linux intrusions almost always depend on the guy running the box to be an idiot. Not patching a 5 year old service. World writable configs, etc. Not to mention you can make memory exploitation REALLY hard on linux with a little bit of time.
Just some of my thoughts.
-
besides the points you already made, I personally dont like the drama that surrounds BSD. Too much cloak and dagger, he said she said type of things going on. Supposed cases where founders of BSD distros backdoored distributions but was never verified, etc.
To me, I feel like itd take less effort to secure a linux box then to have a 'more secure' BSD box that has such a shitty culture and asshat developers. Of course this ain't universal, some pretty good hearted people out there, just not my style.
As far as linux security goes, almost all of its issues are easily solved by simply knowing what the fuck youre doing. You could say that about other OSes, but I feel like with linux its security is really up to you. In windows and other OSes you can easily get fucked by obscure features and complex systems. Sure linux can fall victim to that too but it tends to be the norm for other OSes. Linux intrusions almost always depend on the guy running the box to be an idiot. Not patching a 5 year old service. World writable configs, etc. Not to mention you can make memory exploitation REALLY hard on linux with a little bit of time.
Just some of my thoughts.
Thanks for the input, I agree that the simplicity is one of its key components.
Whatever I do I will probably move to a nonsystemd distro in the next year.
It is interesting to see that most of the garbage has been there for such a long time.
I agree that the linux community is quite different from BSDish ppl , also I think most of those backdoor stories are not true, there was this big fuzz about jails being completely flawed, the story however was a hoax of some sort.
-
Consider trying other major linux distros than the one you previously used.
-
I don't know much about OpenBSD, but I do know that security is their number one priority, they value it above all other attributes. Hence not getting the latest hardware working quickly ect.
The idea that their OS could be backdoored by their own developers is farcical at best to me.
I'm also interested in the OS, would love to hear more if you give it a go proxx.
-
To be honest my friend. If Linux does what you want it to then there isn't really a need to switch. Unless BSD has something that Linux cant offer then stick with Linux. As madf0x said, the majority of security flaws within Linux usually are due to stupid mistakes. I much prefer the Linux communities than that of BSD personally, but that's just my experience.
If you have another device to install BSD on then try it. I was tempted to switch a while ago due to the ports package management, but Gentoo also offered a very similar way of installing packages.
-
ah I was thinking of this: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/openbsd-code-audit-uncovers-bugs-but-no-evidence-of-backdoor/
Which turned up nothing(unless maybe the bugs were the backdoor? sneaky sneaky). I also remember some controversy of Theo de Raadt supposedly hacking some other developer for some reason, it was never proven though and I can't seem to find it anymore.
-
Sup evilzone.
I am interested in some opinions here.
Last year linux has been under fire for being not as secure as we would like it to be.
Perhaps the arch is inherently more secure than say windows , but I am worried.
Thinking about making a full switch to BSD , point is that I am not sure if I would be better off.
Only thing I don't like is the lack of 'new hw' support and less software to play with.
I played around with BSD's before and know my way around for the most part.
Any thoughts?
I don't know if I read that correctly but... if you liked Arch Linux you could always look into Arch BSD. When I worked at the bank I had a lot of spare sit down time and from the information I collected I would tell you to at least take a shot in the dark with BSD.
-
http://www.ossec.net/ and keep calm! I really don't like BSD mainly because I always have lack of drivers on it....
-
I enjoyed this thread, as well as all of the feedback that was received. I like the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" advice as well. I enjoy many flavors of Linux, the software that's available, as well as the developers and different channels of information that is available. I don't know much about BSD, but that side of the development team just doesn't seem as prominent to me as the GNU/Linux part of things.
I fired up Free BSD on a VM a couple weeks back, and was playing around with it, maybe try that out for awhile and see how things work ? Just a thought.
-
There's no reason why you can't use both (well, unless you're limited hardware-wise). I use both Slackware and OpenBSD, and love them both for different reasons.
I will say this: the BSD-sphere makes Linux look pretty weak in many ways. With OpenBSD, for example, proper documentation is a HUGE deal. Haha, reminds me of this:
https://raindog308.com/linux-vs-openbsd-documentation/ (https://raindog308.com/linux-vs-openbsd-documentation/)
Frankly, most Linux distros seem like crap beta-ware to me, other than Slackware, Gentoo, and CRUX.
-
There's no reason why you can't use both (well, unless you're limited hardware-wise). I use both Slackware and OpenBSD, and love them both for different reasons.
I will say this: the BSD-sphere makes Linux look pretty weak in many ways. With OpenBSD, for example, proper documentation is a HUGE deal. Haha, reminds me of this:
https://raindog308.com/linux-vs-openbsd-documentation/ (https://raindog308.com/linux-vs-openbsd-documentation/)
Frankly, most Linux distros seem like crap beta-ware to me, other than Slackware, Gentoo, and CRUX.
Crux/Arch are things I fell in love with , same with gentoo . Slack is something I did try but never for extended periods.
I have a openbsd partition atm which is working for me ,as you pointed out have some troubles with hardware but its not too bad.
Maybe when I get the HW right I will migrate my linux install to containers or KVM and work from there.
Well I gotta say arch has one of the best docs around, gentoo is pretty awesome aswel.
Thats the crap with stuff like debian/fedora/centos the docs are just not written that well , often lack concepts.
Yeah you are right , there is no reason to bail out on linux, which would be hard for me anyway :P
-
Well is the switch worth it? The chances of your box, especially with your knowledge, being exploited in any should be low. Are there any particular things that you're worried about? I'm wondering now, because I use Arch daily and never really gave too many thoughts to security as I never take it out of my local network or browse with it.
-
Sup evilzone.
I am interested in some opinions here.
Last year linux has been under fire for being not as secure as we would like it to be.
Perhaps the arch is inherently more secure than say windows , but I am worried.
Thinking about making a full switch to BSD , point is that I am not sure if I would be better off.
Only thing I don't like is the lack of 'new hw' support and less software to play with.
I played around with BSD's before and know my way around for the most part.
Any thoughts?
BSD is arguably better suited as a server than linux for reliability/security reasons, but I'd stay with linux as a desktop personally. There isn't as much variety and support for all the bells, and whistles for it as there are with Linux.
And again... bsd isn't more inherently secure... what you see is security through obscurity... the more people that use bsd the more it will be targeted... which will expose more of those flaws... that's true of every distro...
In any case... if linux does what you want, then why switch?
-
And again... bsd isn't more inherently secure... what you see is security through obscurity... the more people that use bsd the more it will be targeted... which will expose more of those flaws... that's true of every distro...
OpenBSD is more inherently secure, by design. That's the point. It's used more than many realize, in lots of embedded systems and such. But of course any Linux or BSD can be hardened (or softened!) to make it more (or less!) secure.
-
OpenBSD is more inherently secure, by design. That's the point. It's used more than many realize, in lots of embedded systems and such. But of course any Linux or BSD can be hardened (or softened!) to make it more (or less!) secure.
This ^ is true. OpenBSD is the most secure and free operating system available at the moment in my honest opinion.
I will say this: the BSD-sphere makes Linux look pretty weak in many ways. With OpenBSD, for example, proper documentation is a HUGE deal. Haha, reminds me of this:
https://raindog308.com/linux-vs-openbsd-documentation/ (https://raindog308.com/linux-vs-openbsd-documentation/)
A good answer on this ^ lies would be.....
Well I gotta say arch has one of the best docs around, gentoo is pretty awesome aswel.
....this ^ answer. Did you take a look on Arch docs mate? You could even find useful stuff for BSD really.
Frankly, most Linux distros seem like crap beta-ware to me, other than Slackware, Gentoo, and CRUX.
Debian for example is beta-ware...? I will take this as a terrible attempt of being funny.
If you speak seriously then give as an explanation, it would be really interesting.
As for slackware, I like them for the security-stability they provide and for the as Unix-like as possible philosophy. But what about the kernel...? What kernel did you run before like 3-4 months mate? Let me guess... 3.4.x. Now after 14.1 release you will run 3.10.x for more than 1 year. Well Debian provided 3.16.x customized as stable since 4-5 months now. And the new stable release will most possibly come out with 3.17.x soon enough, so you can see the difference here. Every distro in Linux world has its positives and its negatives. Some are fairly better than others, but nothing is perfect.
Thats the crap with stuff like debian/fedora/centos the docs are just not written that well , often lack concepts.
Now as for the documentation, Debian provides all the documentation needed. If you tried to find something and you couldn't, let me know I will provide all the information you need in no time really... If you consider yourself Debian end-user (so you have mastered the apt suite) you really don't need documentation at all. All you really need is your terminal... I will make myself more clear on this in the near future. Now if you installed Debian for like 1 week or something and you were thinking you will find something like Arch wiki... well no. Arch is the best on docs, but there is a reason for that. Arch has pacman as its package manager, Debian as I 've said before provide you apt suite. Making proper use of it and combining it with man <command> docs... you will really be beyond documentation.
Of course this is just an opinion, its my point of view. This is a really interesting thread, I would like to hear more from someone who actually uses openBSD as its main-everyday desktop system(if there is anyone around). It would be really cool.
-
^ No, you are correct of course, Debian is solid, I used it for years before switching to Slackware. Sad though that they are going down the systemd rabbit hole, but that's easy enough to remedy; hell, I even have a friend that uses openrc (from Gentoo) as his init on Debian.
And I agree, also, on the documentation for Arch and Gentoo, both wikis are excellent and I have them bookmarked for quick access.
As for kernel version in Debian vs. Slackware, I give zero fucks about this sort of thing. I can run Slackware -current if I want, or roll my own custom kernel. I usually use older hardware anyway, so I don't need or care about the latest and the greatest.
Also, I do use OpenBSD as my main-everyday desktop (and laptop) system. Old x86 desktop, and ThinkPad T61 laptop. And then Slackware on an old x86 desktop. And I also have Mac OSX on a fucking 2014 iMac, hahaha.
-
As for kernel version in Debian vs. Slackware, I give zero fucks about this sort of thing. I can run Slackware -current if I want, or roll my own custom kernel. I usually use older hardware anyway, so I don't need or care about the latest and the greatest.
Well in this argument, I didn't wanted to be meant like a Debian vs Slackware thing. I just wanted you to realize that each distro has its pros and negs...
Now the thing that you can install manually (so do I) which ever kernel you want. It does not change the fact that the Linux distro you are using is providing you an old kernel as its main-stable one, on its latest release.
Now can you tell us objectively if there is any other downfall on openBSD as a desktop system other than the lack of hardware support(as you said that you use it for your main distro)?
-
Now can you tell us objectively if there is any other downfall on openBSD as a desktop system other than the lack of hardware support(as you said that you use it for your main distro)?
Downfalls? Not really for me, personally, but my needs are probably different than most. I don't game, so that's not an issue. Everything works OOTB on my ThinkPad, no worries there.
Oh, I do have another T61 that I experiment with other stuff on, currently this. Newer kernel! ;D
(http://s3.postimg.org/xa4p8ac6n/sabayon_xfce.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/xa4p8ac6n/)
-
Speaking of Kernel's "Hybrid" one's caught my eye of late, the only problem with regards to security is that vendors of products that make revenue from advertising would rather you didnt have any. I mean just look at the guy's listening to the idiots, putting backdoors everywhere, something that will have people reeling for the next decade, Bug's in Bash, Bug's in SSL and Bug's in X11 (24 to be precise!) an of late Linux itself on the recieving end as being an extremeist platform, save the children (pfft) hardly any of the idiots putting backdoor's into those system's have even stopped to consider that the very thing getting attacked is there own UNICOS. The systems, they rely upon for most of the digital forensics and decryption, if in doubt go look-up UNICOS online and read... It's the CRAY super-computer chosen platform, SUSE Enterprise Extremeist Linux! Then to make it better, there was contraversy surrounding BSD too with people offering idiots backdoors into it - case in point Gregory Peck!
If in doubt you've only got to go see what the former intelligence analyst leaker leaked to everybody.. Capabilities against Fat32 - Ext 3 - Ext 4 and UFS <-- that last filing system belongs to BSD BTW...
The way I see it is that platforms have been getting more and more secure as time goes by, this has resulted in the guys who've enjoyed thieveing information from everybody finding it hard and harder to do it and I dont doubt thats going to get even more tough as time goes by, people are not as stupid as they look, claims that it's only been happening since Bush are lies, it's been going on since the early 80's case in point 95, 98 and NT with _NSAKey in the Microsoft CAPI. Microsoft as a company along with there partners at Apple and Google are pretty much finished as a company, due to open source pushing them out the door, the result is they do what they do best and try to attack the very system they view as a threat to there business model with little regard for the fact that what they're attacking has further reaching implications than they can fathom. Case in point - Zimmermann himself said that attempting to thwart cryptography used to secure online commerce and banking leaves us all vulnerable to cyber criminals, when you buy stuff online, what is it you think keeps your banking details out of the hands of the crooks?
Not so easy to break into systems where the philosophy is many eye's make all bugs shallow but then you have to wonder about that when they leave the bugs going for as long as four years and dont tell anybody!!! Was it North Korea's fault Sony got pwned? I doubt it, I think the blame for that should rest squarly with the company that knew there product was shoddy security to begin with and then probably sat on the vulnerability in the first place.
Do you believe that all systems are vulnerable? I dont, because I took the time to go look up the standards and so should you. Ever heard of TYPESAFE? ANSI-C? Those are the standards that only one operating system has in abundance with rock solid security and it's not BSD although BSD is based on it! Research Unix 10.5 more bullet proof than fort knox an do you know why nobody use's it much?!? Because it's not designed for some imbecile with "pointy and clicky!". When Linus cough's the line that "Hybrid" Kernels and "Hybrid" filing systems are a "Marketing Gimmick", it's time to take a seat and shake your head, pointing out that custom "Hybrid" kernels and custom filing system's are the primary reason everybody is getting pwned because of one nation-states desire to spy on everybody else! Go research HFS+ and JFS and then go examine the HJFS filing system and see if you can figure out why someone would want to merge a file splitting protocol with the properties of JFS and you might be closer to the truth than you realise, especially when you type: man maps on the command line and read about how it download it's telemetry map data from the CIA database! Firewalls are so passe, it upset's people to find out, you never needed one in the first place!
http://ninetimes.cat-v.org/
250'000 CPU's x 2 due to duel core = 500'000 CPU cycles
1.7 Billion "Hacked" victims to date!
That's some serious "PwNaGe!" Power!
-
The best security is no computer. Makes my knowledge solid and secure. End of story.
-
The best security is no computer. Makes my knowledge solid and secure. End of story.
Yeah, there is that aspect to it too... Unplug + Brain = Win!
Or suddenly figure out that the reason all your stuff's got bug's in it, is because they where put there on "Purpose" and no amount of replacing your operating system is going to fix or address the problem, if you dont tackle it at the source!
Oracle + Google + Microsoft + Yahoo + Apple + Facebook!
For years all the far left privacy guys have been presuring going "ok what's going on?" now you know, that if you'd wanted a secure operating system to begin with they could have done it from day one, but they opted for the back-door method, because that make's stuff so "bug" proof!
An OS built around JAVA well "Javascript" has always been so SECURE...
It's not like people write Javascripting Viruses that infect multiple platforms eh? Or lets look at the Windows Scripting Host or the Visual Basic Scripting elements, that any sane security minded person would want gone!
An as for it all being in or around internet explorer, well there's nothing new.. All the hacking guy's an gal's have been having a go at them about that issue for how many years??? We've all been saying it for years that we dont exactly like having an Operating System modelled around a locked in Browser with CRAP at the core for over half of the 20th Century, so who know's maybe one day, they might actually listen! Instead of trying to create a new type of locked in desktop on Gnome centered around Nut-Scrape (Mozilla).
If your desktop come's with a Browser that doesnt respect your freedoms to remove it, then that is a piece of code that should be burned until it no longer appears anywhere! If your wondering what I mean, try to remove Firefox and watch whilst it offer's very kindly to take half of your Gnome desktop with it! Browsers should be banned - they encourage advertising penis's!
I mean it's not as if it's that HARD to get security of the CORE OS right the first time around is it?
Firewall on by DEFAULT - poke the anti-virus where the Sun doesnt shine, get the libraries all secure by DEFAULT dont leave it to the end user to sanitise there SQL query, get SQL to sanitise it to begin with, then that way if they want to use unsafe functions or install third party propritary CRAP that's down to them and on there own damn head be it!
Cookie's + Java = Being nice to advertisers!
How about no Cookie, no Java? I bet they wouldnt feel too good about that? But where in God's name does it say, you must have Cookies and Javascript enabled? Oh it doesnt! God damn Sammy Kumar and his God damned ever-cookie! Coupled with Secure Sockets invader (SSLstrip) = Java & Cookie whore!
Oh look kid's it's (fire)fox-acid = http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acidpaper.html (http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acidpaper.html)
If Gnu/Linux & OpenBSD are used by extremists then what does that make UNIX?
The King of Bot-NET?
Question: by Jacob Applebaum "Either these guy's dropped a lot of ACID, or they read a lot of Phillip K. Dick!"
Answer: "they probably did Both!"
One day that little fluffy bunny rabbit is going to take over the entire world and when that day finally comes, Oracle, Microsoft, Apple & Google (formerly Novell) will be nothing but a bad memory on the pages of history!
_ _
\`\ / /
\ V /
/. .\
=\ T /=
/ ^ \
/\\ //\
__\ " " /__
(____/^\____)
The whole philosopy around open source is a 'GLOBAL' collaboration amongst friends and developers around the entire world all sharing a common goal, but when one side of that community decides to head off and do it's own thing, thinking screw everybody else, then yes, that creates disharmony and disolves the entire principle of open sharing and collaboration as a whole. An the final result's speak for themselves, pissed off people around the globe! An you can alomst hear the retarded war-cry of "CYBER - CYBER-COMMAND!" here it come's, spread your butt-check's, it want's in and it doesnt care if it pisses everybody all off in the process!
If your determined to try BSD - then try DragonFly as I hear it's pretty good, it split from FreeBSD after the maintainer disagreed with the direction FreeBSD took with it's Kernel and unlike most of the BSD variants does not use UFS for it's filing system, but rather one based around Zune called "HAMMER".
Dont go here if you use Javascript, because what happens is all thanks to HTML5 web-standards!
www(dot)filldisk(dot)com/
But the music is cool! If you know a fag with Android OS you should send them the link for sure!
Or copy the .JS and remove the STOP button, because what fills up your Hard Drive with Cats can probably read it's contents too. You probably remember that *trick* from back in the 80's displaying the contents of your Windows C:\ Drive in internet explorer over the web thanks to *Javascript!* ~ "silly rabbit tricks are for Kids!"
-
One day that little fluffy bunny rabbit is going to take over the entire world and when that day finally comes, Oracle, Microsoft, Apple & Google (formerly Novell) will be nothing but a bad memory on the pages of history!
So, are you using plan9/9front, then? I've been interested in trying it out, haven't made the jump yet.
-
To be honest, I've looked at it, but it does say in Ken's resume your better off compiling your own version because you never know if someone will be tempted to do something "Stupid!" and to be honest, looking at filing systems and filing protocol's there's quite a range to choose from, there's OpenAFS, theirs ReiserFS <-- that ones a little funky, actually got hacked using that! Then there SFS from good ole Peter Guttman, which stands for Secure Filing System, then there's FreeDOS, so the choices are really out there for the picking! I'm quite partial to good ole black and white DOS prompt's with Arachne for a file manager, you've just got to remember to turn off the bit that says allow "Cookie" and as for PGPi back in the day PGP version 5 for MSDOS was quite all the rage and to date it's still got no vulnerabilties or at least that was the case until Symantic got there filthy little hands on it!. If encryption is outlawed, then only outlaws will have encryption ~ Phil Zimmermann. Oh and Windows 3.1 for workgroups used to be good, until it became 32 bit and they started shipping it with Explorer iexplore.exe & explore.exe by default. or as some people call it Shitty Shell! If you've got your phone handy you might want to run the ShellShock bash-bug vulnerability checker, because the last time I looked at the latest version of Lollipop aka: Android 5, thats still in there!
Way to cause global paranoia amongst a community of developers, Bash-Bug "what in that crappy Bourne Shell?", argh!!, lets eradicate bash! Somehow I dont think that the original Bash was the issue! But yeah looking at Ext 3, Ext 4 and UFS thinking, hmm, nice, so thats why my filing system has a "Lost & Found" folder!
Time to swap back to using browsers like: Lynx and Dillo, now I totally understand why Stallman doesnt browse the web ~ it makes your eye's bleed & it's bad for your brain!
You know when you go browsing the Job's section looking for Web-Developer wanted the last thing you expect to come across is USED PANTIES 4 SNIFF!
But somehow, I dont think putting a meglomanic "Kill Switch" in everybody's PC is the answer!
(http://i.imgur.com/V5qrwLj.jpg)
If TOR & Privacy is such a big issue because it attract's morons, then that's an issue that the TOR developers should solve, by closing TOR - I mean do people really believe that TOR is the be-all and end all of privacy and anonimity? Please! That just show's there ignorance! An if it's such a big problem, then parhaps, the TOR and Onion network's should be reserved exclusively for ADULT's that use real Unix & dont want to see Kiddo porn! Although it's kind of amusing that they would waste so many resource's on attacking the TOR network's when it would appear that there are still loads of site's in Foreign countries that host that crap openly!
Normally, in a normal world, what you as the poor recipiant would do, is contact support at abuse@host-name.com and then the provider tackles the problem, not some secret spy agency that want's to harvest it all. ;)
It could all be solved so easily by adding a button that says report this node for "CRIME" and then that's the end of the issue! It's really not much to ask for, a way to black-list certain TOR exit's so they flash up in the clear to everybody for hosting either "Drugs - Guns - or Porn!" then everybodies happy and we can all get on with our lives! A black-list button that submits the site back to the TOR developers, then they can call the shot's on what to do about it!
I love that photo: "Will be sent in Zip-Lock bag for freshness!" ewww, nasty!
The wonders of Gumtree "Buy and Sell your Items and search the classifieds to find a Job in your local area!
Almost as good as the one on e-Bay that said "Buy my nagging wife!" only $20'000!
You sure as hell do not need the dark-web to buy "Drugs - Gun's or Porn!" most of those online pharmacetical companies and legitimate weapons stockist's will actually sell it to you with one phone call - it's called a "legitimate buisness transaction!" but it's funny because we all get to have a good laugh, watching them go this solves everything! Funny, how if I go for a ride on the Bus into the local town I can buy any variety of out-door weapon a budding survivalist lunatic could want, directly over the counter! No question's asked!
"Hi, there, yes I'd like to buy that really big sheath knife in the window! Oh and I see you sell razor sharp collectable swords and high energy bolt weaponry that goes through chainmail too!"
It's so epic to read on the news that after they read everybodies mail and after they perv over people on there camera's now they deploy armed guards fearing for there own safety!
Saying an attack is highly likely, pfft, what they mean is everybody's gone dark and started using the stuff of there worst nightmare's and started talking with each other in private and they cant thieve and perv over what they're saying to each other!!
Doesnt it make your heart-bleed!
-
Here's a little list for you of operating systems that appeal to "Hackers"
Bobcat & FreeDOS
jNode - with Snow & the latest version of JRE!
Plan9 (sadly not available in Farsi, Cantonese or Urdu!)
UnixV7 - Jolix BSD
Windows XP - the only version you can still RIP explorer.exe out of with ease!
VirtualBox & VMWare
It's kind of ironic that after you boot your chosen BSD or Linux OS and have to bypass the Bootloader password, then decrypt the main LVM and then parse your password to gain access to root - an all that was for nothing, because the browser has been screwing you over!
The fact there is no ICON's or point and click on on at least about 4 in that list is the whole part thats appealing, it's not something someone will suddenly just pick up and become awesome with over-night! I seriously doubt anyone would even know how to setup the security permission's if they'd never delved into either Linux or BSD or spent anytime around a command line interface, something we call the CLI which is missing from Android, iOS and Blackberry to begin with! Whilst loads of people will probably download 9front and give it a whirl, you might want to read up a bit first! Because it's all well and good seting up a password in the Non-Volatile Memory but did you acticate the authentication? Did you delve into Local.complicated and setup which host's can connect and which one's are restricted? If not, you might find yourself Pwned! Always help's, to read more than just the wiki & more than once!
Nothing more painful than realising the fact sheet your reading was for the old Fossil filing system and you've just dismounted your disk-drive cylinder heads - permanently!
It's not as simple as just typing in one password and that's it!
Ho-ho-ho-ha-ha-har if only everything was that simple!
It should be obvious to everybody by now, who's got experiance with Open Source and experiance of propriatary rubbish where the issue's are at and it's no mistake that the Certificate Key Chain and that web of trust is not pretty much in bit's, but not for long - China's got the right attitude, "mind showing us your source-code?". Something tell's me they might have a bit of a wait, everybody else has been saying the same thing for the last 20 years!
You might ask yourself well why XP and not OSX - the simplest answer is it has so many active scripting components - its a virus writters heaven!
-
Installed Plan9 (well, 9front) yesterday. Very compelling, I like it. So fast, so simple, so clean. You could compile the whole system from source in less than half an hour. Definitely need to play with this one some more.
-
Installed Plan9 (well, 9front) yesterday. Very compelling, I like it. So fast, so simple, so clean. You could compile the whole system from source in less than half an hour. Definitely need to play with this one some more.
You will get bored with this little venture pretty quick... 9front isn't a viable operating system in this daynage from what I've seen...
-
You will get bored with this little venture pretty quick... 9front isn't a viable operating system in this daynage from what I've seen...
I suspect you are right, definitely a hobbyist venture. But curiosity got the best of me.
-
I suspect you are right, definitely a hobbyist venture. But curiosity got the best of me.
That's why I always try to satisfy my curiosity with youtube first :P
-
That's why I always try to satisfy my curiosity with youtube first :P
I do that, too. But then I still need to get my hands dirty, anyway. I do like it, but probably wouldn't use it on a long-term basis.
-
You will get bored with this little venture pretty quick... 9front isn't a viable operating system in this daynage from what I've seen...
No offense, but you've not seen much! Did you know it emulate's Linux? If that's what your more into or the fact it can use more than one protocol? If you think Linux is smooth and fast, then Rio and RC make's Linux look bloated and slow! Not to mention, that if you really wanted you can run any Linux program inside it! Like I said, you really should read and re-read the wiki about half a dozen time's, it's not exactly going to show you everything it does with one quick install and a quick fiddle. Looking for a more Windows looking Shell, try Inferno then all you type is startemu or if you want linux it's dwm & But it's down to you to replace your $PATH.
That's the bit that was actually in the talk at the chaos security conferance, when Jake said "We've never seen this protocol before, it comes up as heavily encrypted UDP emulating RC6 and seem's to be emulating apache but it's not really apache, we dont know what it is!!" LOL
I knew, whilst I sat there listening to his talk which you can find on YouTube at this link exactly what it was!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtQ7LNeC8Cs
Your firewall stop's most ICMP & TCP eh, but the question you should ask yourself is, does that mean it stop's 9P or Styx from climbing all over your sockets? Got a fancy card that need's a driver, nobodies going to just write one for you, that's the whole point, you have to write it yourself! An the beautiful part is it's in C so it's not like it's totally alien, even if it is from Outer Space! The first time people see it, they just "dont get it" it's a GRID computing platform, so if you put it on more than one PC, how many PC's are now under your command?
If you think TCP/IP is "SPDY" - SPeeDY, you should check out the size of that Socket Stream!
That's what I mean by a lot of "PWN" power! Insert North Korea across phiber optic cables --> here && *poof* 500'000 CPU's all going, "oh, you did that to Sony eh, well look what this can do to you!"
"With Great Power, Comes Great Responcibility!" an all of that Jaz! I bet you've got it now!
It not just some PC OS - it's a "Cluster" operating platform!
One about the Size of UTAH with lot's of water keeping it nice and cool!
That must be what they mean by a "Monster-Mind!" thats one big Hive!
"We are Borg! Resistance is Futile!"
Just because it says it's a "Hobbist!" platform dont be so easily fooled, all Unices, be it Linux or BSD all the way back to the God-Fathers of Unix are described as a "Hobby" operating system!
UDP - User Datagram Protocol, flowing all over your IPTables & ARPTables and right past your Firewall in an unstoppable wave - Who Has Blah-Blah-IP Address Range - Tell Blah-Blah-IP Address Range... Funny how UDP is actually an encrypted protocol that is a blast from the past, the "Gopher" protocol and it's all over your TCPDUMP logs, regardless of what-eva firewall appliance you have.
"isn't a viable operating system in this daynage!" I bet the guy's who spent there live's writting it - wish they had a nickle for every-time someone said that!
-
Am I having a seizure right now or was this whole post nonsense?
No offense, but you've not seen much! Did you know it emulate's Linux? If that's what your more into or the fact it can use more than one protocol? If you think Linux is smooth and fast, then Rio and RC make's Linux look bloated and slow! Not to mention, that if you really wanted you can run any Linux program inside it! Like I said, you really should read and re-read the wiki about half a dozen time's, it's not exactly going to show you everything it does with one quick install and a quick fiddle. Looking for a more Windows looking Shell, try Inferno then all you type is startemu or if you want linux it's dwm & But it's down to you to replace your $PATH.
That's the bit that was actually in the talk at the chaos security conferance, when Jake said "We've never seen this protocol before, it comes up as heavily encrypted UDP emulating RC6 and seem's to be emulating apache but it's not really apache, we dont know what it is!!" LOL
I knew, whilst I sat there listening to his talk which you can find on YouTube at this link exactly what it was!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtQ7LNeC8Cs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtQ7LNeC8Cs)
Your firewall stop's most ICMP & TCP eh, but the question you should ask yourself is, does that mean it stop's 9P or Styx from climbing all over your sockets? Got a fancy card that need's a driver, nobodies going to just write one for you, that's the whole point, you have to write it yourself! An the beautiful part is it's in C so it's not like it's totally alien, even if it is from Outer Space! The first time people see it, they just "dont get it" it's a GRID computing platform, so if you put it on more than one PC, how many PC's are now under your command?
If you think TCP/IP is "SPDY" - SPeeDY, you should check out the size of that Socket Stream!
That's what I mean by a lot of "PWN" power! Insert North Korea across phiber optic cables --> here && *poof* 500'000 CPU's all going, "oh, you did that to Sony eh, well look what this can do to you!"
"With Great Power, Comes Great Responcibility!" an all of that Jaz! I bet you've got it now!
It not just some PC OS - it's a "Cluster" operating platform!
One about the Size of UTAH with lot's of water keeping it nice and cool!
That must be what they mean by a "Monster-Mind!" thats one big Hive!
"We are Borg! Resistance is Futile!"
Just because it says it's a "Hobbist!" platform dont be so easily fooled, all Unices, be it Linux or BSD all the way back to the God-Fathers of Unix are described as a "Hobby" operating system!
UDP - User Datagram Protocol, flowing all over your IPTables & ARPTables and right past your Firewall in an unstoppable wave - Who Has Blah-Blah-IP Address Range - Tell Blah-Blah-IP Address Range... Funny how UDP is actually an encrypted protocol that is a blast from the past, the "Gopher" protocol and it's all over your TCPDUMP logs, regardless of what-eva firewall appliance you have.
"isn't a viable operating system in this daynage!" I bet the guy's who spent there live's writting it - wish they had a nickle for every-time someone said that!
-
He's right about it, no nonsense.
As time went on the system really grew on me due to its built in simplicity and versatility. I feel that for most areas I tend to agree with the approaches taken after a small period of adjustment. There are some exceptions but those seem easily fixed due to the simplicity and versatility of he system. For example, due to the nature of everything being a file (including network access and process tables) and the presence union mounts sandbox environments are exceedingly easy to set up. One can do so with a shell script instead of a full hypervisor or even docker/cgroups. Sandboxes seem to extend all of the way to the UI level where one can restrict a process to operate only within a window that you draw, limiting unwanted pop ups for example.
Similarly, a mixed architecture cluster seems very easy to set up because of the unique cross compilers, 9p shared file systems and factotum. You can go all of the way from highly centralized cluster (thin client) to fully distributed (thick client). Single sign on is built in to the system.
Now, after only 6 months, I feel pretty comfortable with working on virtually any part of the system, including the kernel and rio. Other environments, including Linux, seem so bloated in terms of the UI's and the code. I can recompile the whole plan 9 system in just a couple of minutes. There is a lot of information available in the manual pages all of the way from user level to programmer level.
Through my journey into this area I discovered that plan 9 and Go are grounded in principles of simplicity, clarity and brevity. It's amazing what can be accomplished once you work on a system that has all three. Meanwhile, it seems like the rest of the software world is focused on the opposites and a whole lot of expensive band aid solutions.
-
He's right about it, no nonsense.
Actually I liked how the Dev's described the Posix user experiance as being "Nuclear!"
They're not wrong, if you look at Distrowatch (dot) org - how many spin off's of the same OS? For the last 30 years? All Linux - Linux - Linux and all naff - naff - naff!
Too many cook's all in the same Kitchen = Bad soup!
nCurse's (you've been cursed) - Pthreads (these can be very Viral) - oh my!
Then you've got the original guy who looked after the code base for years, having to fend off the hoard's going "How about an intuitive Javascripting Interface, with his swift reply "NO!!! Absolutely not - F*** off!" :lol:
It's all about the Unix design principals, "do one thing and do it extremely well", "keep it simple stupid" and the vast differances between having a web browser thats 128kb in size and does pretty much plain old text vs a web-browser that's 105 megabytes in size a struggling under its own bullshit! The differances between System V vs the vast differance to System-D with every arsehat under the Sun going, "we know what to do, we'll make it BIGGER and more bloated with extra features, it'll control all the system daemon's and that will fix it!"
Did windows become more streamlined and faster as time went by? "Be Honest!"
No it, didnt, it got bigger and fatter and slower and had so many intuative feature's, that it became the pile of shit that it is today - all on it's own!
KDE - Compiz Fusion - Metacity - Gnome - all severly bloated filled with useless feature's that most people wouldnt give two hoot's about! MS-DOS - The quick & Dirty Operating System, hold up I've just got to run this intuative file tuning wizard to defrag my disk, because my filing system appear's to have splattered the files all over the place!
"SilverLight" what an epic product, you've only got to spray it once a month with RAID to keep all the SilverFish that want to eat all your money at bay!
Microsoft & Apple & dare I say it even poor old Google all did the same thing, they all lifted idea's out of the Open-Source community in an effort to create there products, which technically is theft - but not if you signed the waiver first - whereby you agreed they could take your idea's and do stupid things with them in the name of technical excellence and progress!
I wonder how many Nexus customers where pleased with there Free Upgrade, remember that Linux back-door that hinted at smarter hack's.. Oh yeah, well now your locked in and you'll never see that command line ever! I mean seriously you trusted a load of Guys, one who walk's around with a perpetual sly Grin, another one that shoves his workers off there bicycle into the flower bed's and another guy who's chairman of the board and is starting to look like Liz Hurley because he's had so many Botox infusions coupled with colonic irrigation!
-
They're not wrong, if you look at Distrowatch (dot) org - how many spin off's of the same OS? For the last 30 years? All Linux - Linux - Linux and all naff - naff - naff!
You sir have just summed up the new generation of the Linux community...
+1
-
Such a confusing and misleading title.
-
Such a confusing and misleading title.
Not totally we did cover DragonFly & HAMMER FS to begin with! ;)
Before it started delving into pFsensor and netfilter! Almost completely missing anything to do with Linux and sticking with Unix, if it was Linux I would have mentioned PacketFence for all the good it does with Unix Datagram *erm* *cough* User Datagram Protocol.
Let's refresh the old memory;
UDP on Port 0
Root File Permissions on 0
Display on 0.0
CPU Ring set to 0
Good god man, there is no "spoon!" there is only a "fork" and it need's lots of polishing!
At least the maintainers where honest about it, "we gave it to those arseholes at berkley" and they did something "hackish" with the "Kernel" insert small tubby hippy with sandles talking about software freedom's over nyah --> Remind me again GNU stands for "is Not - WHAT?"
All those GNU users embrace far too much of Chairman Mao's ideology with there Philosophy "That there is only one way a Youth can prove themselves as a revolutionary, weither or not he's willing to intergrate himself with the masses!" and it's from those masses that all this hackology ideology seem's to spring out of!! Finding bugs in the GCC with the GDB debugger and all the software that was compiled with it, making a pretty penny for the afore mentioned GNU software that was all full of bug's to begin with!
Breaking down barriers such as social networking a new form of Socialism, Corperate Facism also known as Windows & DRM and finally the spirit of Community also known as Communism!
Hey kids, do you know what all the Unix admins call Stallman behind his back when he's not busy eating a cheese noodle from between his toes?
"Robespierre!"
Because he's always the first one to start screaming "Revolution, Revolution, Revolution - but as soon as the other guys want to have a long chat with him about his buggy compiler and the fact he's used way too much fsync he's nowhere to be found!"
The GNU project started promising the world the most awesome "Kernel" back in 1984 - (try not to think of Orwell) 31 years later & we're all still waiting in anticipation to see the benefits of it over the original, which just pardon the french "fucking" works!
/**Fetches all copies of Linux Journal Monthly & Copies of stupid Hacker Pentesting Linux on CD.. Takes them into back-garden, wedges them under the barbeque grill and sprays it all librerally with barbeque fluid.. **Light's Match & Throws** !Phomph **Goes and sit's down with a smug satisfied smile./
-
You sir have just summed up the new generation of the Linux community...
+1
Seriously. There's only a few distros that are even worth considering in my opinion: Slackware, Gentoo/Funtoo, CRUX, and maybe the Sorcerer/SourceMage/Lunar family. All else is crap, or offshoots of crap. Anything that is going/gone to systemd is doomed. They are mostly becoming bloated Windows wannabes. "We want more pointy, more clicky, more GUI wizard configuration tools!"
-
Seriously. There's only a few distros that are even worth considering in my opinion: Slackware, Gentoo/Funtoo, CRUX, and maybe the Sorcerer/SourceMage/Lunar family. All else is crap, or offshoots of crap. Anything that is going/gone to systemd is doomed. They are mostly becoming bloated Windows wannabes. "We want more pointy, more clicky, more GUI wizard configuration tools!"
The old init is dead... long live the new init!!!
Really though, it's silly to fight this.
Shhh... *puts finger on bones mouth*
just take it... just let it happen.....
(https://www.opencpu.org/images/systemd.jpg)
It came.... look... look around...
(http://ngc891.blogdns.net/pub/funny/systemd-meme.jpg)
-
^ Hahaha, she wants it, and wants it hard.
*bones bends over, applies vaseline*
-
(http://i.imgur.com/AOIh8S6.jpg)
-
^ Hahaha, she wants it, and wants it hard.
*bones bends over, applies vaseline*
Let's look under the hood of Google!
Does this picture look familiar? It should it's the Google Cloud!
Where the internet "Lives!"
http://lsub.org/ls/figs/cloud.jpg (http://lsub.org/ls/figs/cloud.jpg)
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/17/article-2219188-158CA78F000005DC-369_964x641.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/17/article-2219188-158CA78F000005DC-369_964x641.jpg)
Software we made is being used by Bell Laboratories, Coraid, and other "first-level companies"
Translation for non-technical people - TIER ONE (1) PROVIDERS!
An just so your in the Loop it was code-named "Brazil" - Long before it got called "Plan9".
That is, as it should be the case with all software, our software works and can be used.
We have as a tradition using the last system we built to work and develop the current research system we are working on.
To mention some software we wrote, it includes;
Several operating systems (we refer also to their kernels, not just to some software you run on top of Linux!)
Several window systems (some of them distributed)
A couple of compilers and run-times for programming languages
Distributed data base engines (DBMSs)
Network protocols
After all, "if there's nothing to hide, there's nothing to fear!"
http://lsub.org/ls/projects.html (http://lsub.org/ls/projects.html)
**SLURP**
Attack of the giant ANTS **It's THEM!**
http://www.9gridchan.org/ (http://www.9gridchan.org/)
9Legacy & 9Spirit
http://9legacy.org/ (http://9legacy.org/)
9Atom
http://www.9atom.org/ (http://www.9atom.org/)
9Front
https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/ (https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/)
Vx32
http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~baford/vm/ (http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~baford/vm/)
9 aka: Research Unix System 10.5 on the Brain! **Fuck System-bs-D** ;)
BSDEMU or BSD Emulation is planned next!
As to this story shown in this Picture!
https://cms-images.idgesg.net/images/article/2014/06/googlessl-100310469-orig.jpg (https://cms-images.idgesg.net/images/article/2014/06/googlessl-100310469-orig.jpg)
I seriously doubt they had that technical parlence to pull that off without some help!
People should really just ask a geek or hacker nerd what the letters "GFE" stand for!
**A SPECIAL EVIL-ZONE RELEASE** Because we're all hackers and we're all alike, unlike "ioerror && all the developers that maintain Debian - tails" who appear to have never heard of Unix in there Life!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/UNIX-Licence-Plate.JPG (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/UNIX-Licence-Plate.JPG)
Just think how many years of head scratching and bug hunting you'll have once those ever so subtle bug's are inserted into the Gnu/Linux & BSD code base, you'll all be scratching your head for many years still to come! The "Elite" go to the top of the class and the "n00bs" stay on the bottom, it's a dog eat dog world after all...
The best way to describe it would be with an infograph of the "Kernel" showing that Grep / Sed / Awk etc all run from the "Kernel" space, hence the software is built into the "Kernel" not on-top of the "Kernel" and thats why the "Kernel" is only 130'000 lines long, in terms of Size unlike the Gnu/Linux Kernel that is over 130'000'000 lines long and is bloated with useless rubbish!
The design of the Kernel is totally differant and that's why when you look at this;
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Systemd_components.svg)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Systemd_components.svg/720px-Systemd_components.svg.png)
You should worry!
If people want to fork something, they should start here..
http://swtch.com/plan9history/
An to hell with the fact Lucent would end up owning it, I wouldnt care, I'd be just happy to see a "Kernel" that work's the way it was intended, i'd rather see "Lucent" end up owning it putting microsoft, apple & google out of buisness instead of spending the rest of my life listening to Stallman waffle on about freedom's and then get sued the moment you borrow something from the GNU! "Oh for Christ sake there are no backdoors in my Kernel honest!" ~ Linus Torvalds
Wait a minute, I sniff something.. I think it's called *BULLSHIT*
You can almost hear "BullRun" erm Stallman's voice echo across the vast expanse of Cyber-Space "Thats egregious I tell you, you've taken part of my code base and stuck and even bigger backdoor in it, it's mine I tell you.. MINE!"
"I'm pentesting or I'm bug hunting!" the next unix admin you tell that too, will silently think to themselves, oh wonderful another retard!
ANSI C
The Version of the C Programming Language standardised by the ANSI-Authorised C Programming Language Committee X3J11 and the ISO-authorised Committee JTC1 SC22 WG14.
Sometimes refered to as Standard C.
Designed to codify existing practices but also add new features, such as function prototypes to correct deficiencies in the Language. The standard revoles the differant rules for declairing data objects and clarifies certain long-standing ambiguous area's..
Such as C++, K&R & Posix!
Stallman is the long-standing deficiency and what's more he's a complete pain in the arse!
1984 was a good year, it was the same year that X-(KeyScore)-Windows rolled out of MIT!
"Wait a minute my new Kernel is coming, it's coming!" ~ Stallman
Yeah, dude's only been saying that for the last 31 years with a Maximum of three Kernel maintainers spread out across over 100 Open Source projects! Very efficient and not Lazy at all.
-
@systemd shizzle
This is a lotta fun if anyone got some time.
27c3 - Desktop on the Linux... (and BSD, of course) - Wolfgang Draxinger (+ Lennart Poettering)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0
Takes a turn.
-
@systemd shizzle
This is a lotta fun if anyone got some time.
27c3 - Desktop on the Linux... (and BSD, of course) - Wolfgang Draxinger (+ Lennart Poettering)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0
Takes a turn.
Yeah and Android & iOS where running both a Linux & BSD Kernel too!
Repeat after me, there is "no such thing as a backdoor" that's why the Kernel is partially preconstructed in a "Binary" format & you may not edit the code the most you can do is write a module!
Did you notice how SELinux has now taken over all "Linux" projects including >> Gentoo doing away with GRSecurity and Bastille is no longer available in "any" Linux repository!
See: http://bastille-linux.sourceforge.net/
-
Currently I use slackware(most solid OS I've ever used) and OpenBSD. I have some minor issues with OpenBSD but it's like exploring new land. Man pages are sexy. You just install OpenBSD and type:
man afterbootthen everything makes sense. Everything is explained from what you can/should do after your first boot. And from there you have enough links for man pages to actually learn basic administration of OpenBSD. I'm enjoying learning it. Definately going to try Plan9.
+1 to scamp I somehow enjoyed reading your posts