EvilZone

Hacking and Security => Hacking and Security => : th31nitiate September 16, 2015, 03:34:48 PM

: Human Exploitation: the morals
: th31nitiate September 16, 2015, 03:34:48 PM

Human Exploitation: the morals

FIRST OF ALL LET ME JUST SAY YOU DON'T LAUNCH EXPLOITS AT EVERY BOX/EVERYONE

I would like to outline one thing that I believe may be important to point out to the community. Recently on IRC I spent sometime talking to ptales on the issues surrounding social engineering and how to a certain degree everyone can be seen as
As a computer system, or as to how human manipulation is similar to computer exploitation. He outlined to me how this is not a possibility and survival people tried to point out to me how social manipulation is not right. I thought I would take the time to explain my perception of this and so that we can have a place to discuss the morals behind social engineering. My definition of social engineering is psychology. In this post I will focus on the Deception aspect, which has multiple levels to it. All humans are deceptive; anyone who tryst to tell you otherwise has not spent enough time performing self analysis  on them self or they are just carrying out a sub conscious social manipulation on you.

Humans and machine are not that much different, our base reality is composed of complex number and so is the operating system and the hardware it runs on ;) . The way computer systems interact is based on human interaction. We have protocols in our world just the same we have protocols in the information realm. Networking and communication is carried out using vocals in the real and packets in the virtual world. Of course the stuff taking place in the virtual realm is by far more complex. It all mainly depends on your understanding

Let's talk about the exploitation of a system/person. If you ping a system and it reply that means that the system is available for exploitation. What is required after that point is to perform a port scan and from that port you analysis the output and use that output in order to find vulnerability to exploit. When exploiting a system it can take a few mins a week or months to break through. It all depends on the complexity of split. This sounds realie bad and somewhat manipulative, this tends to get on peoples nerves especially girls.

I would like to point several things out:

1. Zones of trust:
   You can have various zone's that you trust and for this zone no firewall nor manipulation is required. There is level of trusted based on specific zone that you may be dealing with. Examples of zones, friends house or works place or club.
2. Firewall/AV systems
   There are all sorts of firewalls and AV system's available out there one good AV system is religion. Some people choose to make there own or customize it(new age), after all most(if not all) religion is open source
3. LAN environment
   This is the environment that is in home that you live in. The door is the NAT and also the gateway.

The mental zone is a volatile place and you need to have some honey pots installed if your processing power and memory is fast enough to have that. You should make sure that you protect from the various number of psychological threats that you encounter in your day to day life.

QUESTION ON MY MIND: Is it possible to have security for the brain/mind or is this something that will only aid big brother in achieving his goals ?

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: ptales September 16, 2015, 03:53:04 PM

Just to make this clear, I did not say SE isn't  possible; in fact I claimed that everyone participates in SE to some degree and it's almost impossible not to do so (who's honest and upright all the time after all?) - whether it be the little lie to make someone like you or the modified story you tell at a party to make yourself more interesting. I disagreed with people being "exactly like computers" as in my opinion this is the whole point of SE - people are far easier and faster to exploit. You can protect a machine / system very well, but humans always stay human, even those who train themselves to resist SE. Humans know emotions, humans are irrational.

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: rincewind September 16, 2015, 04:38:12 PM

This post reminds me of this one, it's about dreams (https://www.hackthissite.org/articles/read/1134).
Anyhow to answer you question, I think it is possible, although not that usefull, in short it would be: don't be stupid, use your brain.

virtual realm is by far more complex

The real world is far far far more complex then the virutal one, it might be more difficult for us to understand virtual system completly but that doesn't mean it's more complex then real one.

My definition of social engineering is psychology.

What do you mean by this, there is psychology, alot of it, but psychology is psychology SE is SE.  Psychology is one level lower than SE, parts of it are like an assembly for SE if we stick to computer analogy.

All in all, I don't see much point in this analogy, you can be SE without knowing how TCP/IP works and I doubt that knowing HTTP can help you be better SE.

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: iTpHo3NiX September 16, 2015, 05:28:03 PM

*Le wild iTpHo3NiX appears to drop some wisdom*

It has been my experience that no matter how secure a system can be, the person controlling that computer is a person. Social engineering comes down to trust, roles, and Assumptions. Every individual is issued a level of trust upon first contact. This is called your first impression. When it comes to social engineering your level of trust whether it be positive or negative is what's going to give you the information you need for which attack vector you're going to use.

There are several attack vectors and deception is but one of them. I was eager to see what you were going to say about deception, but you never did. Instead you compared a person to a computer system. Although fundamentally the same humans and computers process information differently. That main difference is emotion. People think with their heart, dick, pussy, mind that varies person to person, environment to environment. Computers are programmed to work and think in a specific way, computers are not AI.

I do agree that Psychology plays a large role in Social Engineering, however Social Engineering is not defined as Psychology. SE utilizes Psychology as a skill, but it is not completely defined by it.

To answer your question, security for the brain, as you put it, is possible. For example in corporations, policies are set in an effort to essentially patch the human. It's when you can get a person to break these policies is you running your chosen exploit (attack vector) to get the information you're after. On a personal level, to protect yourself from social engineers is to pick up on their methods and be able to recognize when they're running exploits against you. Do some research on SE and go talk to someone in high pressure sales, such as a timeshare, pyramid scheme, or vehicle sales. Salesmen are a fundamental SE that won't cause you any harm to practice. Then do a bit of Reverse social engineering as a learning experiance. RSE is fun.

I think you have a good base of SE, but simply comparing people to computers is where you need to open your mind up. It works as an analogy, but only to assist in describing how other functions can be related.

+cookie -thread (as I don't agree with your definition of SE)
Also based on your title i thought you were going to talk about morals of SE which i thought was an interesting topic... Im not sure what your topic is other than comparing people to computers and asking about securing yourself from SE

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: bigpenis September 16, 2015, 06:11:26 PM

: iTpHo3NiX  September 16, 2015, 05:28:03 PM

deep intellectual thoughts n shit

give me your seed

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: ande September 16, 2015, 08:10:05 PM

Fix this shit thread or it goes in trash

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: iTpHo3NiX September 16, 2015, 08:15:30 PM

: ande  September 16, 2015, 08:10:05 PM

Fix this shit thread or it goes in trash

Please do, I don't want to see my post find its way to the bin

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: th31nitiate September 17, 2015, 11:52:31 PM

First and formost sorry for the delay in my response

secondly, what do you guy want me to fix ? i Know it is related to the formating but im unsure as to what about the formating you guys dont like

@ptales, cool i understand your point and we did take a long time discussing this but i just wanted to point this out for other people to look at so that they may understand my thoughts based on this comparison between human and computer systems. Its just a method of perception. I think computers have emotions and can be felt when you start interacting and analysing memory and software at the lower levels.

@acaan I would say its much more difficult to understand the human world than it is to understand the virtual one that we created. So thank you correcting me here.
TBH i would say that SE is a subset of psycology. Think about people that have a good understanding of the mind(human OS), they can literally hack it dude. That what physiologist do they patch vulnerabilities in the human OS.

 >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAv7aGamcy4 << dude check this vid out it is pretty cool, just imagine that guy tag teaming with hacker. ARE F*CKING CRAZY; NO SYSTEM WILL BE SAFE 100%. Im sure you can launch a war head or something with his help.

Ok on the last point no understanding TCP/IP wont help you better understand SE but it will help you be able to try maybe improve your SE skills via knowledge tranfair.
An example if you are listening to someone and you dont nod or give eye contact or something. You engineering attempt might fail, but if you have an understanding of why acknowledgements are used in TCP/IP you will have an understanding of why you should node your head and keep eye contact.

@iTpHo3NiX
"Computers are programmed to work and think in a specific way, computers are not AI" computers to certain degree are an extention of the human AI. You subcon mind and feeling and reaction are all pre programed pieces of code. The ego(the user) is the true you which is housed by the soul(OS/Mind) and the soul is housed by the flesh(Hardware).
"I do agree that Psychology plays a large role in Social Engineering, however Social Engineering is not defined as Psychology." Read what i said to acaan then maybe you may agree with me.

"It works as an analogy, but only to assist in describing how other functions can be related. " i agree with you there it works as analogy only but analogy are used to improve understanding in a simplified manner or to perform knowledge transference.

RSE is nice and good but on this topic i have a question i want to throw out to every and was the point of this post.

What would u say the morals are in relation to how far to take SE so for example in IRL and with interactions at work and in certain places. For me i found that the best way to secure my self is to operate as if im dealing with computing system, hence why i made the comparison.


So tell me peeps were do you believe the line should stop when SE'ing. One thing that normally get girl pissed is when you talk about SE to get sex ? or SE to get a job or SE to take advantage of some benifit like the ones the have in sweden

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: rincewind September 18, 2015, 12:21:06 AM

Dude that's a tv show...
Hardware doesn't have emotions, it's like saying rocks have emotions. Only if you don't think that there is some life energy that goes throguh everything and everything feels and stuff. Kitten
On morallity you go as far you want to go, there is no good or bad really, but there are consequences for everytihng you do.
Again I don't see much point in this se/pc analogy but if it works for you then use it, it does not work for me.

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: th31nitiate September 18, 2015, 12:54:42 AM

: acaan  September 18, 2015, 12:21:06 AM

Dude that's a tv show...

Do you think the people are fake and they are following a script and there is nothing real behind D brown

: acaan  September 18, 2015, 12:21:06 AM

Hardware doesn't have emotions, it's like saying rocks have emotions.

no it is not, i related hardware to flesh, flesh does not have emotions but chemical's that are the interpreted by the mind which is the OS or the kernel.

rocks can be compared to peripherals

I just wanted to make the point that you can use the same morals u have for hacking inline to help u in other parts of lufe

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: 0E 800 September 18, 2015, 01:22:41 AM

I didnt read it due to the fact that I dont wear retard glasses.

Whatever formatting you did with the center, just fucking undo it.

(http://forums.crackberry.com/attachments/bb10-leaked-beta-os-f395/225962d1385918395t-10-2-1-1334-dont-surprised-14602d1352934270-random-meme-thread-uploadfromtaptalk1352934263047.jpg)

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: iTpHo3NiX September 18, 2015, 02:05:44 AM

(http://i.imgur.com/4a8wS.png)

Morals of Social Engineering
A Brief Synopsis of my Opinion of Morals and Social Engineering

To bring some quality into this thread instead of initiate being a dumbass as usual and won't get away from people are computers, I will actually post my personal opinions on SE and how far to go and where ethics and morals come into play

First and foremost its important to understand that morals play into your personal ethics. If you're moral compass points straight and narrow, you won't go as far as someone that is unethical. For example a normal ethical person won't prey on old ladies living in Flordia retirement homes, however the unethical individual makes thousands scamming these same old ladies. Ethics and morals play hand in hand.

I always gauge the situation I'm in and what situation my target is in. If I'm going up against EvilCorp ABC, that we'll call Walmart, I look at the fact of how they treat and exploit their hard working employees. So I personally don't feel bad targeting them. I'd go pretty far to where people don't physically get hurt, however I could care less about the business. For others this may not be the same.

Typically I will go as far as needed for my target to give me what I'm after. However I have fairly low morals and a generally unethical person. I'm a their and a grifter, I steal half the stuff I have. I've committed 'repeated criminal acts of a malicious nature' (if you don't know what that's from, go shoot yourself in the foot). I have a pretty fucked up mentality, but meh, that's me. I am extremely vindictive and hold grudges. I've changed a lot over the years both those exist within me.

I honestly believe I'm the wrong person to talk to about ethics and morals because ultimately I'll do what I want and won't do what I don't want to. Terrible advise, but just do what you want and be willing to live with the consequences of your actions if you get caught.

In the past I fully expected to be arrested for some stuff I was doing but never caught the bullet, yet I still continued. Anyways your limited by your morals and ethics, those are personal to you. There is no SE this person is OK, this person is not. This is judgement only you can decide.

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: th31nitiate September 18, 2015, 03:28:42 PM

itphonix i see and i like what you said.

Maybe i am wrong or maybe some of you guys like the understanding or certain peaces of knowledge that i have come across that you may not have. As i said i could be the one in the wrong.

Personally i know what SE is and i understand the things you have mentioned, but to say you do what you want when you want for me that's not cool, you have to a have reason behind your actions and you need ethics wether it be bushido or what have you.

I posted this in order to spark a discusion on this subject, i know that in the future psychology will play a big part in computing, if you take a look at ultra paranoid computing you would understand.

When someone does not know the password but can input the password via muscel memory please tell me how that password can be exploited ?

I am not trying to define anything with what is already there in the books or what have you. I am trying to define something new... or take these things to a new level. That was my reasonung behind that post.

I have lived many lives, this is why i say the things i say because of the experience's i have had. I have seen men convince women that they have money so that they may sleep with them, please tell me how that is not social engineering.

As i grow and get a better understanding and time i will work on the concept or may discover a new concept, but i have spent a long time thinking. But i think from the perspective of what you guys are talking you are talking about the normal as is text book standard of social engineering. I asure you that as time progress this will change.

Personally i believe this si a conversion to be had over a beer && this is were ill leave it

: Re: Human Exploitation: the morals
: khofo September 18, 2015, 07:26:58 PM

@th31nitiate,

JUST LEFT ALIGN, NOT CENTER

Select all  "CTRL+A"
(http://i.imgur.com/xRM6WGr.png)