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General discussion / Re: Hey everyone! Newbie asking some questions
« on: February 20, 2016, 01:34:49 pm »
Thanks r4k00n - Unfortunately, I think you are being a little too optimistic in regards to the first part of your response. However, you are dead on in the second part, to a point.
People in general want the quickest easiest answer with the least amount of effort, with the Internet that expectation has only become worse. I am not saying that your view is incorrect, just that most of the time your version is not the bore out in reality. In fact, your response is contradictory in this regards. In some, rare, cases a question will be asked after the effort has been made to get to the answer. However, more often than not, the ingrained expectation to be spoon fed answers precludes any effort to self education.
I may be in the minority, in that I spend time trying to read between the lines before responding to a question. First, do I understand what is being asked, in other words do I know enough to either answer or point the person in the right direction. Does the person asking show enough knowledge to understand the answer? Finally, has the person asking given any indication that they have made any effort to find the answer themselves. The latter is usually glaringly obvious when they ask a broad question. The more specific a question, the more informed the asker is, I can't think of a single example that this does not hold up.
With all that said, I agree with you that most of this is due, in large part, to how kids are educated in in primary school, and to some degree, depending on their major, in college. Critical thinking, is not a skill that is emphasized until college level in most cases. Prior to that it is a matter of memorizing and regurgitating set of required curriculum.
The problem with this debate is that with the ease of access to information that the Internet provides this becomes less of a reason and more of a bad excuse. For example, if you do a search for what is the best languange to learn for hacking. You will come across countless links to answers, in these links you will find a wealth of responses saying essentially the same thing, none of which is a direct definitive answer. At some point something in your brain should click and the realization that the question was not specific enough should come as a serious pimp slap. If you cannot understand the countless responses that generally run along the lines of "it depends on what you want to do" you do not possess the common sense, or critical thinking required to get your answer. In other words if you are going to post the same question for the 1, 000, 001st time you do not have what it takes to go any further.
This may seem harsh, but regardless of how a person is taught, at some point questions should arise because the information doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter if it is in grade school, high school, or college the answers given are not going to be sufficient. This is less a function of being taught critical thinking and more a factor of intelligence. If you sit through and not question what you are being taught, particularly as a teenager, there is less of a problem with the system, and more of one with yourself.
For this forum in particular if you are content being a spoon fed sheep then you really have no business here. If you are unwilling to make the effort to learn, you have no business here. If you are not going to take the time to read the scant few stickies here, you have no business here. Or at the very least you you have no excuse for getting butt hurt when you are called out.
In the end I understand where you are coming from and do not disagree that they are, to some degree very valid points. Believe it or not I am not trying to call you out on the carpet specifically for your viewpoints, because I do agree that the school system is part of the problem, not just in the US. What I am trying to get at is at some point that excuse no longer holds against personal responsibility and accountability. This is a world wide societal issue to one degree or another no matter what part of the world you are in or the topic you are discussing.
To try and give some perspective for the responses that are abrupt, snarky, or down right rude consider a tech support tech. You get a call from several customers a day saying asking why their computer/internet isn't working. Right off the bat, what isn't working? How many things can you think of that would fall under "not working"? Now you have to ask a series of questions to determine what isn't working, relying at least on a customers ability to describe in even basic detail what they are talking about. Depending on their ability to do so you either quickly, or more likely over a long series of q&a determine the power cord is not plugged in to the computer or modem, or that it is just one web site the can't access. How many times a day do you think you can deal with this type of customer without hitting the mute button and ranting? Granted the problem with the scenario is that there is nothing forcing anyone to respond here. But the point is still the same you hear that customer once, you know damned well that that is the same idiot that is going to keep calling and whining every time he breaks something that is so far over his head he has no business messing with it.
Or perhaps go to your high school physics teacher and expect him to explain quantum entanglement to you as a freshman. It may seem like a simple question, but without some more than basic knowledge what are you going to get out of their answer that you can really use practically?
This has ended up being a lot more long winded than I had intended, but the more I thought about it as I was writing the more annoyed I got. It isn't about being superior, I guess it is more about making the point of thinking before you speak, and having the maturity to be responsible for your own learning.
Although this started out as a response to r4k00n, it ended up being a far more general response to the OP and others with similar dispositions.
Bottom line: Ignorance is a choice, not an excuse. If you choose to ignorantly jump into the fray without being responsible enough to make the effort to learn yourself you don't have much of excuse to be butt hurt when you get roasted for it.
People in general want the quickest easiest answer with the least amount of effort, with the Internet that expectation has only become worse. I am not saying that your view is incorrect, just that most of the time your version is not the bore out in reality. In fact, your response is contradictory in this regards. In some, rare, cases a question will be asked after the effort has been made to get to the answer. However, more often than not, the ingrained expectation to be spoon fed answers precludes any effort to self education.
I may be in the minority, in that I spend time trying to read between the lines before responding to a question. First, do I understand what is being asked, in other words do I know enough to either answer or point the person in the right direction. Does the person asking show enough knowledge to understand the answer? Finally, has the person asking given any indication that they have made any effort to find the answer themselves. The latter is usually glaringly obvious when they ask a broad question. The more specific a question, the more informed the asker is, I can't think of a single example that this does not hold up.
With all that said, I agree with you that most of this is due, in large part, to how kids are educated in in primary school, and to some degree, depending on their major, in college. Critical thinking, is not a skill that is emphasized until college level in most cases. Prior to that it is a matter of memorizing and regurgitating set of required curriculum.
The problem with this debate is that with the ease of access to information that the Internet provides this becomes less of a reason and more of a bad excuse. For example, if you do a search for what is the best languange to learn for hacking. You will come across countless links to answers, in these links you will find a wealth of responses saying essentially the same thing, none of which is a direct definitive answer. At some point something in your brain should click and the realization that the question was not specific enough should come as a serious pimp slap. If you cannot understand the countless responses that generally run along the lines of "it depends on what you want to do" you do not possess the common sense, or critical thinking required to get your answer. In other words if you are going to post the same question for the 1, 000, 001st time you do not have what it takes to go any further.
This may seem harsh, but regardless of how a person is taught, at some point questions should arise because the information doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter if it is in grade school, high school, or college the answers given are not going to be sufficient. This is less a function of being taught critical thinking and more a factor of intelligence. If you sit through and not question what you are being taught, particularly as a teenager, there is less of a problem with the system, and more of one with yourself.
For this forum in particular if you are content being a spoon fed sheep then you really have no business here. If you are unwilling to make the effort to learn, you have no business here. If you are not going to take the time to read the scant few stickies here, you have no business here. Or at the very least you you have no excuse for getting butt hurt when you are called out.
In the end I understand where you are coming from and do not disagree that they are, to some degree very valid points. Believe it or not I am not trying to call you out on the carpet specifically for your viewpoints, because I do agree that the school system is part of the problem, not just in the US. What I am trying to get at is at some point that excuse no longer holds against personal responsibility and accountability. This is a world wide societal issue to one degree or another no matter what part of the world you are in or the topic you are discussing.
To try and give some perspective for the responses that are abrupt, snarky, or down right rude consider a tech support tech. You get a call from several customers a day saying asking why their computer/internet isn't working. Right off the bat, what isn't working? How many things can you think of that would fall under "not working"? Now you have to ask a series of questions to determine what isn't working, relying at least on a customers ability to describe in even basic detail what they are talking about. Depending on their ability to do so you either quickly, or more likely over a long series of q&a determine the power cord is not plugged in to the computer or modem, or that it is just one web site the can't access. How many times a day do you think you can deal with this type of customer without hitting the mute button and ranting? Granted the problem with the scenario is that there is nothing forcing anyone to respond here. But the point is still the same you hear that customer once, you know damned well that that is the same idiot that is going to keep calling and whining every time he breaks something that is so far over his head he has no business messing with it.
Or perhaps go to your high school physics teacher and expect him to explain quantum entanglement to you as a freshman. It may seem like a simple question, but without some more than basic knowledge what are you going to get out of their answer that you can really use practically?
This has ended up being a lot more long winded than I had intended, but the more I thought about it as I was writing the more annoyed I got. It isn't about being superior, I guess it is more about making the point of thinking before you speak, and having the maturity to be responsible for your own learning.
Although this started out as a response to r4k00n, it ended up being a far more general response to the OP and others with similar dispositions.
Bottom line: Ignorance is a choice, not an excuse. If you choose to ignorantly jump into the fray without being responsible enough to make the effort to learn yourself you don't have much of excuse to be butt hurt when you get roasted for it.