Author Topic: Why good hackers make good citizens  (Read 1298 times)

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Offline sakthibruce

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Why good hackers make good citizens
« on: February 27, 2014, 06:56:42 am »
Hacking is about more than mischief-making or political subversion. As Catherine Bracy describes in this spirited talk, it can be just as much a force for good as it is for evil. She spins through some inspiring civically-minded projects in Honolulu, Oakland and Mexico City — and makes a compelling case that we all have what it takes to get involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeAGu40vZzI
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Offline Darkvision

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 05:05:28 pm »
nice find. ty for the share.
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Offline Kulverstukas

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 06:08:30 pm »
That was a pretty nice description and a talk overall. Thanks!

Offline Resistor

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2014, 12:41:24 pm »
As an Anarchist, I found the talk truly disgusting, and it highlights one of the biggest problems in the U.S., and the world; brilliant engineers and innovators, hackers if you will, are swept up by governments and put to work in nefarious roles and on nefarious projects. Having the government hire hackers has led to the shit that's going on with the NSA.

The woman is very misguided, and does not display sound judgement or logic.

She begins by describing some common perceptions of hackers. She evokes imagery of a pasty nerd in his mothers basement being mischievous on the internet, and talks about an international “rogue” with a political agenda, while showing a slide of a Guy Fawkes mask and the word “Anonymous”. She is demeaning the culture of anonymous, and casting people who identify with that culture in a negative light. She does not mention any of the good things Anonymous has done, she vilifies them. A bit later, she suggests people shouldn't think of hackers as people like Julian Assange, while showing a slide of him with the caption “wanted by Interpol”, but think of hackers as someone like Ben Franklin. She vilifies Julian Assange, while talking about Franklin one of the greatest hackers of all time. One thing she mentions about Franklin in a positive way, is he famously never filed a patent, because he believed all knowledge should be free. For some odd reason, I'm reminded of an Australian guy with a similar mindset … a gray haired guy who is doing one of the greatest things in our lifetimes to free knowledge ….. who was that again? Eh, probably not important. She would have mentioned that person as a good guy if he really was important. Right????

When talking about good and bad hackers, the examples of good tools hackers might build she mentions are very surveillance and monitoring oriented, and several times she expresses concerns over problems that governments face. Her talk, and position, is very obedient and subservient to government.

When talking about what hacking is, she mentions, “it's about critical thinking, it's about questioning existing ways of doing things, it's the idea that if you see a problem you work to fix it, and not just complain about it”, and she then says “and in many ways hacking is what built America,” describing Betsy Ross as a hacker, and the underground railroad as a hack. Mrs. Bracy apparently lacks the hacker mindset, because as a species, we've done a shit ton of experimenting with governments for a long time, and now we are at a point in history where we have the largest government that has ever existed in the U.S. and it does things gun down innocent people in poor countries it invaded with an Apache helicopter, and locks up the whistle blower that gave the video of the murders to wikileaks for 35 fucking years. Mrs. Bracy talks about empowering citizens, but she fails to recognize that citizenship is the means by which governments exploit people. How can giving certain people the arbitrary authority to use violence to get what they want out of others empower the ones without the authority? It is completely impossible. Government is fundamentally certain people, with sanction or complacency, using violence to get what they want out of others, and imposing their will on them. Being exploited is not being empowered, and government does not empower individuals, government exploits them. As for the creation of the United States, no, it wasn't hackers, it was people fighting to throw off an oppressive government, like what exists now.

Finally, her perception of civic hacking is entirely different than what I might consider civic hacking. Her idea of civic hacking is ignoring and vilifying people like Julian Assange and Anonymous, who are actively doing good things for individual human rights and freedom and empowerment, and helping the government create databases and monitoring tools and shit. Never in her fucking talk did she mention AARON SCWHARTZ, or JEREMY HAMMOND as people that should be looked up to as civic hackers.

Fuck the misguided bitch, and fuck her propagandistic drivel.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 12:42:20 pm by Resistor »

Offline Darkvision

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 06:38:28 pm »
Man Resistor your so right! Tell yah what, why dont you MOVE to a country thats in open anarchy right now! That will teach all them evil governments! Good luck getting online to post this idiocy when you have no power, or internet, or running water, or a decent line on decent food, etc. Ever actually LOOK at a country thats in open anarchy? murder/rape/disease/ starvation/ (insert other problems youve never had to contend with) in rampant form. Good stuff. The difference between a democracy and what you propose is that when you disagree with something you can say so...without getting shot. What i love the most though about your idiotic post, is your supposedly proposing "anarchy" as a good solution for everyone ie the benefit of mankind. Yet she IS doing something that benefits others...and you deplore her as a delusional moron. Oh i get it she isnt doing things the way YOU would so therefore is just a complete tool. Yeah....Oh and just incase subtle(and not so subtle) sarcastic rebukes arnt your thing: You sir, are a fucking idiot. If you applied even 1/100th of that brain of yours to reflection on your current situation vs that of someone actually living in a anarchistic state you would realize just how fucking lucky you are. But nah you wont do that. Keep running around calling america a horrible place because we have a police force that actually attempts to stop rape/murder/theft/etc, instead of committing them. hate america for having utilities that actually stay on and provide stable usable content(power, water, gas). Or if you still really hate all these great things, like good food, then get the fuck out and go live in a cave where none of us will be bothered by your idiocy. (note:you can replace america with just about any other country, certainly any first world country, and yes even china is better than the shit you would have to deal with in a true anarchistic state. )
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Offline iTpHo3NiX

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 08:40:14 am »
All I have to say is what has "anonymous" done, use DDoS to "fight" censorship? DDoS is censorship. They block people from accessing this, so let's block people from accessing them. In what delusional world are you living in? Anonymous is a joke and "anonymous" isn't even anonymous. How are you going to call yourself anonymous and then still use a nick? To me that's just idiotic. These so called "hackavists" are nothing more than a joke. What have they accomplished? Incorrectly doxing a cyberbully? DDoSing goverment sites that last minutes? Who cares?
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Offline nullfly

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2014, 04:26:39 pm »
I have to agree with DeepCopy on the whole hacktivist thing. Don't get me wrong, I think there is plenty wrong with the current governments out there, but "hacktivism" certainly doesn't seem to be solving any of these problems.


Anyway, I think the video is a good find and an overall description of what hacking is. If only more people could have this mindset when they hear the term "hacker".

Offline Traitor4000

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2014, 11:23:20 pm »
Man Resistor your so right! Tell yah what, why dont you MOVE to a country thats in open anarchy right now! That will teach all them evil governments! Good luck getting online to post this idiocy when you have no power, or internet, or running water, or a decent line on decent food, etc. Ever actually LOOK at a country thats in open anarchy? murder/rape/disease/ starvation/ (insert other problems youve never had to contend with) in rampant form. Good stuff. The difference between a democracy and what you propose is that when you disagree with something you can say so...without getting shot. What i love the most though about your idiotic post, is your supposedly proposing "anarchy" as a good solution for everyone ie the benefit of mankind. Yet she IS doing something that benefits others...and you deplore her as a delusional moron. Oh i get it she isnt doing things the way YOU would so therefore is just a complete tool. Yeah....Oh and just incase subtle(and not so subtle) sarcastic rebukes arnt your thing: You sir, are a fucking idiot. If you applied even 1/100th of that brain of yours to reflection on your current situation vs that of someone actually living in a anarchistic state you would realize just how fucking lucky you are. But nah you wont do that. Keep running around calling america a horrible place because we have a police force that actually attempts to stop rape/murder/theft/etc, instead of committing them. hate america for having utilities that actually stay on and provide stable usable content(power, water, gas). Or if you still really hate all these great things, like good food, then get the fuck out and go live in a cave where none of us will be bothered by your idiocy. (note:you can replace america with just about any other country, certainly any first world country, and yes even china is better than the shit you would have to deal with in a true anarchistic state. )

Only thing I have to say is yes you are absolutely correct Darkvision complete Anarchy would be disastrous but that does not mean that America is perfect. I can send you to 50 different videos of abusive police and an incalculable amount of instances where politicians have cheated the public. So governments should not be completely annihilated but change is necessary.
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Offline Kulverstukas

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2014, 11:37:42 pm »
since we started this discussion, exactly this is what is happening in Ukraine - complete anarchy. The government doesn't exist there now until someone appropriate comes in to lead the country. And looks like people of Ukraine are less than capable to self-govern, it's chaos there...
As some people said, the government should work for people, not for the money or power, and until that happens, I don't see ukraine coming out of anarchy stage.

Offline Darkvision

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 03:50:54 pm »
traitor4000 i wasnt saying that america(or any country) is perfect, or that our police are all rainbows and sunshine. Just that comparing our police force vs a non-existant one, or a really bad one is way different. For instance our police force isnt trying to accept bribes/payoffs from tourists, or other criminals(over all, not taht it hasnt happened with some etc). Mexico's police force is a good example of this. Again using mexico as an example, something else we dont really have to contend with is kidnapping. Yes it happens SOME, but their if you have ANY money, you better have your kids under lock and key(and private security) if you have any expectation at all of them NOT being kidnapped. Thankfully our FBI takes taht crime more seriously than any other, they work their ASSES off to make sure anyone involved in a kidnapping is caught and tried. which is why kidnapping for ransom is so rare in the US(despite what hollywood shows) as compared to a LOT of countrys. Sure we tend to not like the FBI because of cyber laws, but dont forget that they DO still do a lot of good.
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Offline Resistor

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 02:43:07 pm »
Darkvision, not only do you have a terrible understanding of Anarchy, but you also have a terrible understanding of Democracy.


Man Resistor your so right! Tell yah what, why dont you MOVE to a country thats in open anarchy right now! That will teach all them evil governments! Good luck getting online to post this idiocy when you have no power, or internet, or running water, or a decent line on decent food, etc. Ever actually LOOK at a country thats in open anarchy? murder/rape/disease/ starvation/ (insert other problems youve never had to contend with) in rampant form.

What makes you think humans cannot find ways to provide food, shelter, and all the other necessities and amenities of life without the force of government? Do you think people just don't do anything at all without a judge ordering them to or a cop threatening to lock them in a cage if they don't?

Murder, rape, disease, and starvation, are all bad indeed. There are lots of bad things in life, and humans can do lots of bad things, like use violence against others, such as in the case of murder, or rape. Killing and raping people is very terrible, and governments start wars and kill people all the time. Both world wars, the Korean war, the Viet nham war, the Soviet/Afghan war, the Iraq wars, all the wars that have ever happened in history ... who started them? Governments, or Anarchists? If you think Anarchy would be terrible because there would be lots of violence and tragedies, and that we need governments to prevent the violence and tragedies, you are completely blind to how the world is today, and why.



The difference between a democracy and what you propose is that when you disagree with something you can say so...without getting shot.


If you're going to support something you really should understand it. You're supporting Democracy, and isn't that that one thing where humans get into a group and the majority imposes their will on the minority, without the consent of the minority? Hey, yeah! That is what that is! In a Democracy, if the minority disagrees with and does not consent to the majority, it doesn't matter at all, the majority will just violate the minority's rights and impose their will on them, consent or human decency be damned. They're for the birds I guess.

What if a government I do not consent to being ruled by has a law which states that it is illegal for me to smoke marijuana, and what if I reject this rule and any authority they claim over me, and I smoke marijuana and a cop sees me? He'll probably try to arrest me. What if I ignore him and walk away? He will forcefully stop me. What if I try to physically defend myself, as I am being assaulted? He uses even more force against me. This is violence, Darkvision. This is what you support. Individuals forcefully imposing their will on others without their consent, or any concern at all over their rights as a human.

Anarchy is the absence of hierarchy. In mathematical terms, hierarchy is 1 being less than 2, and 4 being greater than 3,2, and 1, and it's good and necessary for math to be able to exist, and a lot of things would be completely impossible, and never would have happened if it weren't for math. In humans, hierarchy is police officer being greater than citizen, land owner being greater than slave, stock boy being less than manager, abusive husband being greater than victimized wife, and abusive parent being greater than helpless child, and hierarchy in humans is usually bad, and usually very bad.

The only way in which hierarchy is acceptable is when it is voluntary, as in the case of a person voluntarily choosing to get a job as a stock boy. As the stock boy, they are there voluntarily, and they cede authority to the manager voluntarily. Any time that stock boy no longer wants to be in that position, they can leave. In this situation, no rights are violated. Not the stock boy's, not the managers.

The case of an husband who is abusive to his wife can be complicated. In theory, she is there voluntarily as she chose to have a relationship with him, chose to get married, and is free to leave the marriage at any time, but very significant psychological and financial factors can make it very difficult for the woman to leave. She may feel that the marriage fundamentally is very good and that perhaps she is truly at fault for the violence the man inflicts on her, or she may have no job and be completely financially dependent on her husband.

How about the police man pot smoker hierarchy? I'm a pot smoker, and there are police men out there who would lock me in a cage for it. I reject their rules, any authority they claim over me, I reject any sanction or complacency other people in my hierarchical position may give towards the police, as sanction for someone else to rule me and my life is no one's to give but mine. I want nothing to do with government, but if a cop sees me smoking a joint, they will lock me in a cage. This is morally wrong, and violation of my rights. Using violence against other people is wrong.

What about the parent child hierarchy? This is where all of the bad things humans do as adults comes from. Parents, through their actions, teach their kids that hierarchy among humans is natural, and that it's ok for the superior to use violence to get what is wanted out of the inferior. Parents may try to tell the child that hitting is wrong, but the vast majority of parents would later use violence against that child if they were not complying with instructions. Parental abuse sets the seeds for not just violent behavior from the child when they grow up, but also sanction and complacency of government hierarchy and violence. Parental child abuse is such a disgusting and pathetic thing. The child is there through no choice of their own, is physically abused by a human much larger and stronger than them, has no way to leave, no one to turn to from the comfort, it's really a terrible thing. Anyone who abuses their children is a fucking piece of shit.

What makes hierarchy (in human terms) so terrible, and what makes things like rape and murder so disgusting, fundamentally is the lack of voluntarism. If an individual does not voluntarily consent to something, to ANYTHING, of their own free will, it is a violation of their rights. I do not consent to be being government or ruled by anyone, so anyone governing or ruling over me is violating my rights. The difference between Democracy and Anarchism is Democracy fundamentally violates people's rights, Anarchism does not.


What i love the most though about your idiotic post, is your supposedly proposing "anarchy" as a good solution for everyone ie the benefit of mankind. Yet she IS doing something that benefits others...and you deplore her as a delusional moron. Oh i get it she isnt doing things the way YOU would so therefore is just a complete tool.

She's propping up the greatest institution of violence that has ever existed, of course she's doing it wrong. People like Edward Snowden are people who are doing good things in the world. Also, things like the silk road and bitcoin are good for the world. Why are people like Edward Snowden and things like bitcoin good for the world? Because every fucking problem the world faces, with rare exceptions, are problems caused by fucking governments. Do you think sociopaths having the ability to shoot nuclear bombs halfway across the earth and destroy the whole thing is a good thing? Do you think it's a good thing when police run around like a gang of criminals doing terrible shit like beating people and killing them and almost always facing pretty much zero repercussions? Do you really think that people using violence to get what they want out of others is a good thing and will lead to a peaceful and prosperous world? If you do you're fucking delusional.


« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 03:26:33 pm by Resistor »

Offline Resistor

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 03:12:45 pm »
All I have to say is what has "anonymous" done, use DDoS to "fight" censorship? DDoS is censorship. They block people from accessing this, so let's block people from accessing them. In what delusional world are you living in? Anonymous is a joke and "anonymous" isn't even anonymous. How are you going to call yourself anonymous and then still use a nick? To me that's just idiotic. These so called "hackavists" are nothing more than a joke. What have they accomplished? Incorrectly doxing a cyberbully? DDoSing goverment sites that last minutes? Who cares?


What has anonymous ever done? Here's a couple things ...


Quote
The notorious 'hacktivist' collective launched its 'Operation Tunisia' retaliatory strike in early January, after the Tunisian government blocked access to WikiLeaks and WikiLeaks-related news. Anonymous had already garnered international attention for its distributed denial of service (DDoS) attacks on companies that had severed ties with WikiLeaks, including MasterCard, Visa and PayPal. With OpTunisia, however, Anonymous took aim not at a corporation or individual, but at an entire state -- and one that was on the brink of collapse.

As the operation unfolded, the scope of Anonymous's agenda gradually extended beyond a mere defense of Julian Assange's whistleblowing organization. After hacktivists began collaborating with Tunisian free-speech activists, the organization decided to orchestrate a bona fide crusade, not in the name of Assange, but in the name of the Tunisian people. "We did initially take an interest in Tunisia because of WikiLeaks," an 'Anon' told Al-Jazeera. "But as more Tunisians have joined they care more about the general internet censorship there, so that's what it has become."

The group's swift DDoS attack successfully brought down a collection of government websites, including those of the president, prime minister, ministry of foreign affairs and stock exchange. Anonymous even managed to plaster an open letter across the homepage of the prime minister's site. The hacktivists later posted a series of graphic videos to YouTube, in the hopes of exposing the horrors of the Tunisian struggle.

It didn't take long for the Tunisian regime to retaliate by arresting a group of highly visible activists, including a Tunisian rapper who wrote a searingly critical song called "President, Your People Are Dead." According to Reporters Without Borders, the dissidents were detained a few days after Anonymous's strike, and were interrogated about any involvement with the attack.

The regime eventually regained control over its various Web platforms, but its online dominion was short-lived. On January 14th, Ben Ali dissolved his government and fled the country -- not, of course, because of anything Anonymous did, but because of what the Tunisian people did. Nevertheless, the group's digital involvement in a very real national crisis may mark a turning point in both cyber-warfare and online mobilization.
http://www.switched.com/2011/01/29/anonymous-and-tunisia-a-new-cyber-warfare/


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Hammond turned the pilfered information over to the website WikiLeaks and Rolling Stone and other publications. The 3 million email exchanges, once made public, exposed the private security firm’s infiltration, monitoring and surveillance of protesters and dissidents, especially in the Occupy movement, on behalf of corporations and the national security state. And, perhaps most important, the information provided chilling evidence that anti-terrorism laws are being routinely used by the federal government to criminalize nonviolent, democratic dissent and falsely link dissidents to international terrorist organizations. Hammond sought no financial gain. He got none.

The email exchanges Hammond made public were entered as evidence in my lawsuit against President Barack Obama over Section 1021 of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). Section 1021 permits the military to seize citizens who are deemed by the state to be terrorists, strip them of due process and hold them indefinitely in military facilities. Alexa O’Brien, a content strategist and journalist who co-founded US Day of Rage, an organization created to reform the election process, was one of my co-plaintiffs. Stratfor officials attempted, we know because of the Hammond leaks, to falsely link her and her organization to Islamic radicals and websites as well as to jihadist ideology, putting her at risk of detention under the new law. Judge Katherine B. Forrest ruled, in part because of the leak, that we plaintiffs had a credible fear, and she nullified the law, a decision that an appellate court overturned when the Obama administration appealed it
- Chris Hedges
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_revolutionaries_in_our_midst_20131110?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+Truthdig%252FChrisHedges+Chris+Hedges+on+Truthdig


Offline Resistor

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 03:48:08 pm »
since we started this discussion, exactly this is what is happening in Ukraine - complete anarchy. The government doesn't exist there now until someone appropriate comes in to lead the country. And looks like people of Ukraine are less than capable to self-govern, it's chaos there...
As some people said, the government should work for people, not for the money or power, and until that happens, I don't see ukraine coming out of anarchy stage.




The current state of Ukraine is not Anarchy. That's like letting a bull loose in a china shop for a few hours, getting it out, and then saying you have a bull free china shop, and lambasting it. That whole situation is very complex and there's been a lot of influence from the dynamic between the U.S. and Russia. To say it's an example of Anarchy is wrong. It's an example of the bad things that can happen when governments fuck around doing governmenty thing like building empires.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 03:54:55 pm by Resistor »

Offline Darkvision

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2014, 07:20:46 pm »
Darkvision, not only do you have a terrible understanding of Anarchy, but you also have a terrible understanding of Democracy.
Gee your right i have no clue what these words mean! i know wiki can help!
Quote
Anarchy has more than one definition. Some use the term "anarchy" to refer to a society without a publicly enforced government.[1][2] When used in this sense, anarchy may[3] or may not[4] be intended to imply political disorder or lawlessness within a society. Many anarchists complain with Anselme Bellegarrigue that "[v]ulgar error has taken 'anarchy' to be synonymous with 'civil war.'"[5]
Most individuals who self-identify as anarchists use the term to imply a system of governance, mostly theoretical at a jurisdiction level.[citation needed] There are also other forms of anarchy that attempt to avoid the use of coercion, violence, force and authority, while still producing a productive and desirable society.
Ok so now that we have anarchy out of the way lets examine the concept! Which is what i was trying to have you do to start with, but like most morons if not led to water, then shoving their face into it, they will never figure out that hey this is water! So why anarchy, no matter what idiotic definition you try to apply to it is fucking retarded. is that at the end of the day its no different than saying "gee it would be nice if everybody got 3 rainbows and 2 unicorns for free!" the fact that one cant hold onto/own a rainbow, and that unicorns dont exist is very pertinent to the analogy of why anarchy is such a fucking retarded ideology. But more on this later.
Quote
What makes you think humans cannot find ways to provide food, shelter, and all the other necessities and amenities of life without the force of government? Do you think people just don't do anything at all without a judge ordering them to or a cop threatening to lock them in a cage if they don't?

Murder, rape, disease, and starvation, are all bad indeed. There are lots of bad things in life, and humans can do lots of bad things, like use violence against others, such as in the case of murder, or rape. Killing and raping people is very terrible, and governments start wars and kill people all the time. Both world wars, the Korean war, the Viet nham war, the Soviet/Afghan war, the Iraq wars, all the wars that have ever happened in history ... who started them? Governments, or Anarchists? If you think Anarchy would be terrible because there would be lots of violence and tragedies, and that we need governments to prevent the violence and tragedies, you are completely blind to how the world is today, and why.

If you're going to support something you really should understand it. You're supporting Democracy, and isn't that that one thing where humans get into a group and the majority imposes their will on the minority, without the consent of the minority? Hey, yeah! That is what that is! In a Democracy, if the minority disagrees with and does not consent to the majority, it doesn't matter at all, the majority will just violate the minority's rights and impose their will on them, consent or human decency be damned. They're for the birds I guess.

What if a government I do not consent to being ruled by has a law which states that it is illegal for me to smoke marijuana, and what if I reject this rule and any authority they claim over me, and I smoke marijuana and a cop sees me? He'll probably try to arrest me. What if I ignore him and walk away? He will forcefully stop me. What if I try to physically defend myself, as I am being assaulted? He uses even more force against me. This is violence, Darkvision. This is what you support. Individuals forcefully imposing their will on others without their consent, or any concern at all over their rights as a human.

Anarchy is the absence of hierarchy. In mathematical terms, hierarchy is 1 being less than 2, and 4 being greater than 3,2, and 1, and it's good and necessary for math to be able to exist, and a lot of things would be completely impossible, and never would have happened if it weren't for math. In humans, hierarchy is police officer being greater than citizen, land owner being greater than slave, stock boy being less than manager, abusive husband being greater than victimized wife, and abusive parent being greater than helpless child, and hierarchy in humans is usually bad, and usually very bad.

The only way in which hierarchy is acceptable is when it is voluntary, as in the case of a person voluntarily choosing to get a job as a stock boy. As the stock boy, they are there voluntarily, and they cede authority to the manager voluntarily. Any time that stock boy no longer wants to be in that position, they can leave. In this situation, no rights are violated. Not the stock boy's, not the managers.

The case of an husband who is abusive to his wife can be complicated. In theory, she is there voluntarily as she chose to have a relationship with him, chose to get married, and is free to leave the marriage at any time, but very significant psychological and financial factors can make it very difficult for the woman to leave. She may feel that the marriage fundamentally is very good and that perhaps she is truly at fault for the violence the man inflicts on her, or she may have no job and be completely financially dependent on her husband.

How about the police man pot smoker hierarchy? I'm a pot smoker, and there are police men out there who would lock me in a cage for it. I reject their rules, any authority they claim over me, I reject any sanction or complacency other people in my hierarchical position may give towards the police, as sanction for someone else to rule me and my life is no one's to give but mine. I want nothing to do with government, but if a cop sees me smoking a joint, they will lock me in a cage. This is morally wrong, and violation of my rights. Using violence against other people is wrong.

What about the parent child hierarchy? This is where all of the bad things humans do as adults comes from. Parents, through their actions, teach their kids that hierarchy among humans is natural, and that it's ok for the superior to use violence to get what is wanted out of the inferior. Parents may try to tell the child that hitting is wrong, but the vast majority of parents would later use violence against that child if they were not complying with instructions. Parental abuse sets the seeds for not just violent behavior from the child when they grow up, but also sanction and complacency of government hierarchy and violence. Parental child abuse is such a disgusting and pathetic thing. The child is there through no choice of their own, is physically abused by a human much larger and stronger than them, has no way to leave, no one to turn to from the comfort, it's really a terrible thing. Anyone who abuses their children is a fucking piece of shit.

What makes hierarchy (in human terms) so terrible, and what makes things like rape and murder so disgusting, fundamentally is the lack of voluntarism. If an individual does not voluntarily consent to something, to ANYTHING, of their own free will, it is a violation of their rights. I do not consent to be being government or ruled by anyone, so anyone governing or ruling over me is violating my rights. The difference between Democracy and Anarchism is Democracy fundamentally violates people's rights, Anarchism does not.


She's propping up the greatest institution of violence that has ever existed, of course she's doing it wrong. People like Edward Snowden are people who are doing good things in the world. Also, things like the silk road and bitcoin are good for the world. Why are people like Edward Snowden and things like bitcoin good for the world? Because every fucking problem the world faces, with rare exceptions, are problems caused by fucking governments. Do you think sociopaths having the ability to shoot nuclear bombs halfway across the earth and destroy the whole thing is a good thing? Do you think it's a good thing when police run around like a gang of criminals doing terrible shit like beating people and killing them and almost always facing pretty much zero repercussions? Do you really think that people using violence to get what they want out of others is a good thing and will lead to a peaceful and prosperous world? If you do you're fucking delusional.


First off before i continue my above point i will sum up the entirety of what you just said:Violence is ALWAYS bad, i want to smoke weed but its against the law, because i want to do something and cant, this means my rights are being violated, and it is morally wrong! Just as wrong as rape and murder! I'm a child who wasnt breastfed and have serious control issues, especially when it comes to shitting myself.(ok so the last part im reading between the lines for)


The funny thing is the ENTIRETY of what you posted, flat out ignores every point i was making in my first post, which doesnt surprise me. However instead of giving you some things to look into on your own, which you are obviously incapable of, i will spell everything out for you.


point #1: No matter the ideology one core fact about such things is that they ignore human nature. Its why communism doesnt work, why anarchy is ALWAYS bad, and a big part of why their is so much bloodshed in the world.


point #2: not all conflict/violence is bad. This is that retarded newage bullshit that somehow people have started believing. the entire UNIVERSE is conflict. It's why couples therapists think its bad not only when a couple "fights" too much, but not at all as well! We are SUPPOSED to feel strongly about things, when you do, and someone doesnt this starts anything from a discussion, to an argument, to blows, to death. however this is how we as humans learn and addapt or thoughts and feelings to others. Wishing this to go away is just that, a wish. Not to mention a big part of what makes us human.


point #3: "all wars/conflict are because of ev0l governments." then what is a rebellion if not a war of the people against a system of belief/ideology. Matter of fact the body count from REBELLIONS is close if not higher than that from wars of conquest. If your going to try and use history to argue that "governments" are horrible because of the body count, then so is rebelling! thats right just take whatever bad people want to do to you because otherwise people will die! GUESS WHAT WE ALL DIE! At least some of us have stood for something.


point #4:likening you wanting to smoke weed to an atrocious act like rape shows just what kind of selfish fuckhead you are.


point #5: assuming anarchy, hey your prick ass can smoke weed now. wee! your "rights" are no longer being violated. but stipulating the point that ones self is the highest athority i decide its my right to shoot you in the face till it stops being funny. Dont worry no cops to stop me.


point #6:(and where we start getting into the start of my diatribe against anarchy/your idiocy) Humans will form groups, someone will lead that group. Whether we are looking at a country in total and complete anarchy, or some hill tribe from somewhere back in history, their is a leader. The question then becomes how did that leader get their? Did he(or sometimes she) get their through force, through subjugation of the people around him(or her) or by a process in which everyone got a say? aww you didnt get the one you wanted you were the "minority" TOUGH SHIT. Stop crying like a 2 year old that didnt get to play with the doll you wanted too. At least you GOT a say in the matter.


point #7: with no group (payed for by everyone) exists to protect the group from minorities or other groups what you think/say/feel/etc doesnt matter. because they have the bigger gun, OR often times simply the advantage of initiative. The reason for a police force/military/laws IS to protect the majority of society. THIS IS A GOOD THING! Because in this case the "minority" isnt black people, or women, but people that want to steal your shit, rape you or murder you(etc). We the majority of society(and evidently including you) have agreed these things are wrong, and enforce our will upon those who do not. Some ofc rebel against this, and they are punished for it. but in this instance rape/murder/or you smoking a joint are no different. We the majority decided it was wrong and punishable. If at some point the majority does not feel something is wrong then well hey enjoy! and guess what a lot of places you CAN now enjoy some marry j. however saying that its a violation of your rights on par with being raped is a fucking fallacy. In one instance we are saying no dont fuck up your own brain for pleasure. In the other we are saying no dont permanently scar someone elses brain/id for your own pleasure. most laws, including speed limits, are founded upon what your actions can/will do to other members of society. Which is a necessary thing if we are to have society at all.


point #8: My offer stands. MOVE THE FUCK OUT OF THE US. Id suggest somolia, but it appears like they might actually have a functioning government now(or getting close to one), but their are plenty of places to choose from still, mostly in africa(libya for example). Also note that coming off that same retarded anarchy page on wiki to a different one about "anarchism in africa" that gee africa has been anarchistic since like forever! Also note that war torn countries like afghanistan beat out the GNP of about half of african nations. Iraq around 2/3rds, Shit cuba a small island nation that we have embargoed for probably longer than you have been alive has a GNP better than half of africa. I mean countries taht are "known" shit holes compared to a "first world" country still destroy the GNP of most african nations. Ones that have actual governments and arnt in total chaos/civil war. Just really funny right? how africa is supposedly a shining example of anarchism in society, yet the characteristics of most of these countries are:rape, murder, starvation, disease, famine, etc. yet you STILL sit their trying to tell me "i dont know what im talking about". When i actually stopped to pick up a book and read it, then took a little extra time to COMPREHEND.


point #9: ok this is getting fucking old, the sad thing is i could still keep going...but one final point to you, to really drive home the "GTFO". You talk about consent ie "your manager is over you, but you can leave, thats ok!" "you dont consent to being raped, not ok!" "i dont consent to police mans authority, so not ok!". WRONG, you DO consent to it. By living in this country you consent to the authority of that country/state over you. IF YOU DO NOT THEN MOVE THE FUCK OUT. Just like you can quit a job, you can leave a country! People do this ALL THE FUCKING TIME. hence why its know as "immigrating". If you do not like that you cant smoke weed where you live, move to where you can. However if you stay their, and know it is against the rules, that you are de facto consenting to then it is still on you, NOT the "evil" police man.
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Offline iTpHo3NiX

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Re: Why good hackers make good citizens
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2014, 07:33:47 pm »

What has anonymous ever done? Here's a couple things ...

http://www.switched.com/2011/01/29/anonymous-and-tunisia-a-new-cyber-warfare/

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_revolutionaries_in_our_midst_20131110?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+Truthdig%252FChrisHedges+Chris+Hedges+on+Truthdig

Congrats, you proved my point. DDoS, that's the only thing they can collectively accomplish. At last lulzsec dumped shit from Sony, but making videos on YouTube and simply DDoSing sites is censorship which they are supposed to be against, such as the WikiLeaks example. You're taking through your ass, triple posting and making yourself look retarded
[09:27] (+lenoch) iTpHo3NiX can even manipulate me to suck dick
[09:27] (+lenoch) oh no that's voluntary
[09:27] (+lenoch) sorry